JR-Host - Greetings To All! - from stargate.net using Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) on 7/23 at 9:28pm EST)
Henry-Moderator - ATTENTION TO ALL! JR IS OUR HOST TONIGHT, TALKING WITH US ABOUT THE MSG. PLEASE TRY TO KEEP ON TOPIC AND PLEASE KEEP THE CHIT CHAT ON PM'S, THANK YOU!
JR-Host - Please give me just a few minutes or so, and then we can get started, ok?
JR-Host - Did everybody here read the last discussion, or do I have to review a bit, so that we all are up to speed?
JR-Host - Ok, in our last discussion, we covered the confused political circumstances that fell upon the citizens of Missouri, the Camp Jackson massacre, the emergence of Natty Lyon as an important figure in Missouri, and saw the birth and organization of the Missouri State Guard. Tonight, we will build on that and se what effect the Guard had on the region and learn about some of the more influencial figures who got their start in the MSG.
JR-Host - Here we go.
JR-Host - As field commander of the State Guard, with the rank of major-general, Gov. Jackson chose Sterling Price. Price was a 52 yr. old Virginia native who served time in the Missouri legislature and was governor from 1853-1857. He owned slaves but was a Unionist, who rejected secession, but who also felt that any attempt to restore the Union by military force would cause Missouri to support the Confederacy.
JR-Host - Similar feelings were held by many folks, not only in Missouri, but in Kentucky, Maryland, and even Delaware, to name but a few.
Addison Hart - New York as well.
JR-Host - Price met with Gen Harney, who was still the Union commander in the region and worked out an uneasy truce. Harney was to maintain order in St. Louis, and Price elsewhere, with neither to take hostile action. In an effort to maintain neutrality, Price promised to repel ANY armed force entering the state.
Addison Hart - Harney was later an Indian Fighter who would gaina name as ruthless. Didn't proved to be so in St. Louis.
JR-Host - Whether it be Union or Confederate. The over-riding them in Missouri during this time was to remain neutral, and not be invaded by or chose any side in the war. The Civil war was thought to be something happening across the river, not in Missouri, and most Missourans wished it to remain that way.
JR-Host - Both sides talked peace but prepared for war. Harney was relieved of command, and Lyon was put in charge of Federal affairs. By June, he had more than 10,000 men under arms.
Addison Hart - "I have just returned to this post and have assumed the Military Command of this Department. No one can more deeply regret the deplorable state of things existing here than myself. the past cannot be recalled. I can deal only with the present and the future." William S. Harney.
JR-Host - Exactly, Addison, and it was that line of thinking that lead to his removal. Lincoln and the other politicos in Washington wanted action, not words.
JR-Host - Gov. Jackson and Price tried to buy time and met with Lyon on June 11th. This meeting ended in disaster, as Lyon was anxious to break the stalemate. He informed Price and Jackson that "rather than concede to the State of Missouri for one single instant the right to dictate my government in any manner however unimportant, I would see...every man, woman and child in the state dead and buried...This means war!" Pretty harsh words, indeed.
JR-Host - Jackson issued a proclamation on June 12 calling for 50,000 volunteers to join the State Guard "for protection of the lives, liberties, and properties of the citizens of the state." The governor dwelled on the unConstitutionality of Lyons actions, describing the Federal volunteers as a band of armed, lawless invaders
WuzReb - Natty Lyon... ain't he just the sweetest man? What a very sweet man.
Addison Hart - "I most anxiously desire to discharge the delicate and onerous duties devolved upon me, so as to preserve my the public peace. I shall carefully abstain from the use of any unnecessary powers, and from all interference with the proper functions of the public officers of the State and city. I therefore call upon the public authorities and the people to aid me in preserving the public peace." William S. Harney.
JR-Host - The task of transforming the State Guard from a paper organization to an effective fighting force fell to Price, and he faced enormous difficulties. Jackson helped matters by making judicious choices for his division commanders. He tried to select those who combined military experience with enough social and political prominence to attract volunteers.
Addison Hart - No wonder Harney was removed.
JR-Host - Harney wanted to sit by and let things happen. Lyon wanted things done his way, and if they were not, he wished to make everybody pay.
JR-Host - Failing this, he was guided by political considerations, just as Lincoln and Davis were in appointing generals. But with better results, for the most part.
JR-Host - I know this is coming off a lot like a lecture, but this is a hard topic to encourage participation in. Please try anyway. Thanks.
JR-Host - Developments in Missouri moved with astonishing speed, and they were of lasting significance. During the first months of the war, the MSG and its Federal opponents campaigned over a vast area, marching hundreds of miles. The stakes were enormous.
JR-Host - Missouri had some 200,000 men fit for service, large agricultural resources, and important geography. The only trans-continental telegraph line ran through Missouri, as did the most significant land transportation routes. Also, whoever controlled the portions of the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers would dominate a large portion of the Mississippi River basin.
JR-Host - Although the potential manpower was large, the enemy prevented Jackson and Price from utilizing as much of it as they could. Lyon reached Jefferson City with 2,000 men on June 15th, but the state legislature had fled. Jackson joined a small group of the MSG near Boonville, but Lyon attacked and drove them off on June 17th, earning him fame throughout the North.
JR-Host - A large series of events came to be, and movements occurred throughout the month of June that led to the battle of Carthage, which was a great victory for the MSG. Casualties in the affair were light, but Union General Sigel barely avoided having his forces destroyed, and Sigel himself was almost captured.
JR-Host - During this time there was also an alliance formed between the MSG and the Confederacy. Smaller skirmishes occurred troughout June and into July. The MSG and the Confederate forces were poised for battle near Springfield and planned to attack on Aug. 10, but rain on the night of the 9th cancelled the plans, as most guardsmen had no cartridge boxes and very limited ammunition.
Addison Hart - At Boonville, the Missouri State Guard was commanded by Colonel John Sappington Marmaduke, Price was suffering from diarehia.
JR-Host - But someone did attack on Aug. 10. Who was it, and what happened?
JR-Host - I did not know that, Addison. Thank you very much.
Addison Hart - From more info on Carthage, read David C. Hinze' The Battle of Carthage, published in 1997.
Addison Hart - Welcome, JR.
JR-Host - Well, anyway, here we go again.
JR-Host - Lyon had different problems. Unable to obtain reinforcements from St. Louis, and afraid to withdraw, he attacked on Aug. 10. The Federals acheived complete surprise, but it was not enough. Lyon was killed, and the Federals were defeated. Springfield was evacuated. The MSG was too exhausted to pursue, but they claimed success in what was to become known as the Battle of Oak Hill/Wilson's Creek.
Addison Hart - Nathaniel Lyon had split his forces, one wing under Sigel was attacking the Confederate flank at Sharp's Cornfield while Lyon led the attack on Price and McCullogh from Oak Hills or 'Bloody Hill'.
JR-Host - Following this, the MSG beseiged a garrison of Federals in Lexington. Over 2000 men joined the Guard. The fighting at Lexington was innovative, as some guardsmen used enormous hemp bales as moveable breastworks. When the garrison surrendered on Sept. 20th, Price captured a large store of weapons, ammunition, and other supplies.
newyawk - So JR the MSG was favored the Confederacy, even though Missouri was "neutral?"
CoB - only after Camp Jackson affair
JR-Host - The Federal government had an armed foce that was infringing on Missouri's neutrality, and the goal was to repel that armed force.
CoB - And onlt after Lyon declared war on Missouri
JR-Host - Exactly. Thanks, coB. I was counting on you being here.
WuzReb - Having checked my records, I regret that Wilson's Creek is one of my weak points in the War in MO, as apparently none of my Poindexters were there!
JR-Host - Yet, the position of thePatriot Army of Missouri, as some came to call Price's force was precarious. A large number of men were unarmed, and ammunition was scarce. The army required 100,000 lbs. of food and forage daily, yet foraging could not produce nearly that much, and logistics were in complete disarray.
WuzReb - Right. The MSG was Missourians for Missouri, first and foremost, as later events would prove....
newyawk - Was there adequate transportation in MO? Or were the railroads and roads nearly nonexistent?
JR-Host - That did not mean that control of Missouri was easy for the Federals. The entire MSG was not concentrated under Price, and Maj. Gen. John Fremont, who replaced Lyon, was continually distracted ny small-scale activities conducted across the state by individual companies of the Guard.
Addison Hart - James Mulligan commanded Lexington, didn't he?
JR-Host - newyawk, there were railroads, and I don't know about the roads in general, but the main routes to the extreme west ran through Missouri.
JR-Host - CoB may know, Addisnon. I do not know the answer to that one.
Addison Hart - Mulligan would eventually be a Brigadier General in the US Army. He would be killed at Winchester in 1864.
JR-Host - Some of this activity was the result of Meriwether "Jeff" Thompson, who launched so many raids from the bootheel region that he became known as 'the Swamp Fox'. His undersupplied and under-equipped men were called 'the Swamp rats'. They were a big thorn in the side of US Grant. Thompson hoped to receive support from Gen. Polk in Memphis, but Polk was reluctant to vote a significant number of resources to a state that had yet to leave the Union.
Addison Hart - 'Swamp Fox of the Confederacy', which was a play on the knickname of Francis Marion in the Revolutionary war who was the 'Swamp Fox'.
JR-Host - Price's capture of Lexington caused Fremont to abandon his efforts to open the Mississippi River. He moved against Price in Sept., and Price retreated south of the Osage River. This was disastrous, as 13,000 men deserted from Price's command, and Fremont captured Springfield on Oct. 27.
WuzReb - After the defeat at Lexington, many of the Unionist home guard troops were in kind of a panic. I know that in the SW part of the state, some of the men fled for a time to Kansas, fearing reprisals from the victorious and advancing Confederate troops, as Sigel beat feet for St. Louis...
CoB - Thompson was an engineer as you may know.
Addison Hart - Polk had too little men at Columbus. He was waiting for the attack that he knew would come from Grant. It came November 7th, 1861.
JR-Host - The State Guard found relief at Neosho. Members of the exiled state legislature met there as well. It took a few days for a quorum to assemble, but once they did, something happened that what change the entire situation in Missouri. What was it?
WuzReb - Where exactly is the Osage R? My MO geography is lacking, there...
JR-Host - ...that would change the entire situation in missouri...
CoB - They voted for secession Oct 23, 1861
CoB - It was ratified Oct 31, 1861
Addison Hart - They voted Secession at Neosho, didn't they?
Addison Hart - They officially became Confederate Troops.
JR-Host - Thank you, CoB. Yes, the Mo. state legialture assembled the quorum and voted to take Missouri out of the Union.
CoB - MIssouri was intered to the Confederacy Nov 12
WuzReb - Secession!
CoB - No Addison they were not confederate troops
JR-Host - Price now had a new task. On Nov. 28th, the Confederate Congress admitted Missouri to the Confederacy, and the State Guard commander began transferring troops to Confederate service. This marked an end to the most important part of the Guard's existence, as for over 29 weeks, these American citizens in Missouri opposed the power of the Federal government.
Addison Hart - Secessioooonnnn, SECESSION!
WuzReb - But no, the MSG was not then created Confederate. That was a more gradual process, to muster the men out of State and into CS service....
Addison Hart - They were still called MSG at Pea Ridge, weren't they?
JR-Host - To label the men of the Missouri State Guard as Confederates, as most wrongly do, is to miss the fine shades of loyalty and entangled sentiments which characterized many people in Missouri at the time.
WuzReb - Yes, they certainly were, Addison, and would be referred to as such for some while yet to come... Even as they mustered into volunteer service.
Addison Hart - I knew they weren't Confederates, JR.
WuzReb - If I am not jumping the gun, here, there were in fact many Missourians who REFUSED to muster into CS service. To do so would mean they
JR-Host - The confusion of loyalties which beset Missourans makes it even more ironic that from May through Nov., the MSG was the primary strategic factor in the Trans-Miss theatre.
WuzReb - ... might be called out of the state, and many men were not willing to leave their homes and families thus unprotected. So they would remain, and carry on guer
WuzReb - ... guerilla warfare. And my apologies for the Refresh hiccups...
Addison Hart - Price would become the leading character in that theatre.
Addison Hart - He would soon however, be overshadowed by the tall dark and handsome Earl Van Dorn.
JR-Host - Because it was organized on a geographical basis, the Guard was literally everywhere. Federal commanders were constantly driven to distraction by reports of MSG companies being recruited or operating in counties across the state.
JR-Host - Most likely, yes, wuz, though again, I defer this question to Major CoB.
WuzReb - Absolutely! There were at least 8 divisions of the MSG, were there not? Or 10?
Addison Hart - It became suddenly frightening for the Yankees oposing them. They were all over the place.
newyawk - Um eight divisions?? Certainly not a Confederate or even Union sized division?
Addison Hart - Divisions were brigades in the MSG, Ny.
JR-Host - With a peak strength of 25,000-30,000 scattered throughout Mo. during this time, the US Gov't was forced to devote more than 60,000 troops to the region. Had these troops been available elsewhere, the first year of the war may have gone very differently for the federal forces.
Addison Hart - Brigade sized.
WuzReb - Newyawk, no, rather as JR said, they were geographical divisions within the state, having little to do with how many men each may encompass.
newyawk - Ok thanks Addison...thought that was a huge number for one states guard.
JR-Host - Divisions of the MSG were by geographical region, newywak, not by numbers, brigades, etc. Each of the mine divisions represented a different area of the state.
JR-Host - nine Yikes!
Addison Hart - Louis Henry Little started out as Adjutant General in the MSG, didn't he?
Addison Hart - He's the one who, when killed at Iuka, was mourned heavily by Price who, in shock muttered, "My Little. I've lost my Little."
JR-Host - By early 1862, Price had organized a Confederate brigade of transferred guardsmen numbering around 2,000. he initially commanded these men on the basis of his state militia comission, as he did not become a major general in the Confederate service until March of the following. More confusion added to the mess.
JR-Host - The Missouri Brigade had a long and tragic existence. When Federal forces under Samuel curtis took to the field, Price retreated to northwest Arkansas, where he united with the command of Gen. Ben McCulloch. Price and McCulloch worked together, but there was a strong dislike between the two men.
JR-Host - Together, Price and McCulloch fought in the disastrous battle of Pea Ridge, under the overall command of earl Van Dorn.
Addison Hart - they were commanded by Earl Van Dorn and placed in the Army of the West.
WuzReb - "Springfield MO, Jan 17, 1862: To J. P. Benjamin, Sec of War, Richmond.... Sir, I have the honor to inform you that two regiments of infantry, Cols Burbridge & Rives, one reg't of cavalry, Col. Gates, two light batteries, one of 6 pieces, Capt. Wade; the other of 4 pieces, Capt. S. Churchill Clark, have been organized here in conformity to the laws of the Confederate Staes for service in the Provisional Army...... I have organized these regiments and batteries into a temporary brigade, under the Command of Col. Henry S. Little, C. S. Army...... Sterling Price."
WuzReb - ... Found my notes, finally!
Addison Hart - McCullogh, James McIntosh, and William Slack died at Pea Ridge. Price himself was shot in the arm.
WuzReb - Price and MucCulloch could not organize a tea party, let alone coordinate for a war! Never can understand that...
JR-Host - Transferred east of the Missippi River, the Missourans fought at Iuka and Corinth under Price's command. Although Price re-crossed the river in Feb. 1863, his command stayed in the western theatre fighting at Grand Gulf, Port Gibson, Champion Hill, and Big Black River, only to become prisoners when Vicksburg fell.
CoB - Comment, Please?
Addison Hart - Pea Ridge is one of my favorite battles. A rising star, the well liked Louis Henry Little commanded a brigade there.
JR-Host - They should have been left in Missouri, rather than squandered away uselessly.
Addison Hart - Little died at Iuka.
WuzReb - How many men, CoB or JR, would you reckon left the MSG and remained in MO, to continue the guar
WuzReb - ... the guerilla warfar that would plague the state for a long, bloody while to come? More than just a few, it seems....
CoB - Jeff Thompson'
JR-Host - Losses were extremely high during this period, and opportunities for replacements were very slim. Just over 6,000 Missourans served east of the Mississippi, and only about 1,000 were transferred back prior to the Spring of 1863.
WuzReb - Pea Ridge, IMHO, was a blundered affair, from what I've read. If I am not mistaken, Van Dorn, pushed them like hell, in sleet and rain and mud, and they arrived wore to a nub and straggling...
CoB - troop numbers ranged from 2500 to 10000
Addison Hart - Good night, all. I'll see you tommorow. G'night. Great discussion, JR.
JR-Host - The majority of Missouri units were consolidated into brigades which fought at Vicksburg. 1885 were paroled there. The rest were gone, either as a result of combat or disease, or returned home when enlistments expired.
JR-Host - Thousands of Missourans from the MSG also fought in the campaigns in Mo., Arkansas and Louisiana between 1862-1865. Price commanded the Confederates in the unsuccessful campaign to defend Little Rock in 1863.
JR-Host - In Sept. of 1864, Price also led a raid across Missouri designed to disrupt Federal operations and gain recruits. Though only partially successful, it was the longest cavalry raid in American military history.
JR-Host - Former State Guardsmen were also caught in the viscious guerilla-style warfare which plagued the Trans-Miss theatre.
JR-Host - The MSG also greatly contributed to the leadership of the Confederacy. Generals Daniel Frost, Martin Green, Mosby Parsons, Sterling Price and William slack received Confederate commissions.
newyawk - JR did more guardsmen stay in MO for guerilla warfare or did they go into the CSA army?
CoB - JO Shelby, John S MAraduke
JR-Host - Other Confederate generals from the Guard were John B. Clark, Jr., Francis Cockerell, Basil Duke, Henry Little, John S. Marmaduke, James Major, and Jo Shelby.
JR-Host - I'd say more in the CS army...What do you think, CoB?
Scarlet - LOL< now that is a winnere, earloberall?
WuzReb - LOL, at which time, my Yankee cousin John was in the military lockup at Myrtle Street in St. Louis, (he had deserted to try and join an IL reg't,) then likely wondering if Price was going to come marching right into his prison cell!
newyawk - Did any of the former MSG officers become high ranking generals?
JR-Host - Also, although Jeff Thompson never held a commission except through the MSG, he led several raids and in early 1865 was named the commander of the Confederate district of northern Arkansas and Southern Missouri.
JR-Host - Cockerell.
CoB1 - Yes I agree JR.
WuzReb - Newyawk, my guess is taht more actually went into the CSA army, if they remained in service, at all. They had gotten used to the structure of the army, were used to their officers and such, and hoped to win the war. Many did go home, and some did get into guerilla fighting, but I do not feel this was in any way a majority of MSG soldiers. I could be wrong, though...
CoB1 - Thompson commanded the Memphis river fleet at one point
JR-Host - Price never resigned his generalship in the MSG which existed on paper throughout the war. The last major independent operation of the MSG was in Aug. 1862. Capt's. Jo Shelby and Cols. C-ockerell, John Coffee, John Hughes, Sidney Jackman, John Poindexter, and Joseph Porter penetrated deep into Union strogholds across the state raiding and recruiting. Battles were fought at Independence, Kirksville and Lone Jack.
newyawk - Ok Wuz, and now did the majority of MSG officers go into the CS armies?
newyawk - And did many Missourians serve in the ANV?
CoB1 - No newyawk no ANV
WuzReb - Newyawk, just a guess, but I would say a majority did... My Col. Poindexter did not, however, as he and several others, including Coffee and Shelby, were sent back as recruiters and to organize "independent companies.."
WuzReb - None in the ANV, only the general Mississippi theatre of the War
CoB1 - There were a few that had been in prison in Richomnd that joined the ANV upon release
JR-Host - Missourans knew the true meaning of Civil War. When the conflict erupted, even those with the most pronounced Confederate sympathies chose almost always to enlist in the MSG and remain in Missouri rather than in the Confederate service. The Guard was formed to defend Missouri's neutrality and keep out all invaders, but it eventually was merged into Confederate service as event in the state changed.
newyawk - JR didn't the MSG fold after Missouri seceded? Davis nearly insisted on all states forces being CS forces. Why then would Price technically still be a general?
WuzReb - CoB, okay, thanks for that... I didn't know about those fellas.
JR-Host - A company of Missourans fought at the battle of New Market.
Dameron - The Missouri Brigade lead by John Bowen saw heavy combat during the Vicksburg campaign. They bore the brunt of the fighting at Port Gibsin right after Grant began to cross the river at Bruinsburg, and then they helped saved the day at Champion's Hill.
WuzReb - No, the MSG did not "fold." They were gradually and rather laboriously mustered into CS service, several regiments at a time, which organization took some time. As I recall, the MSG was still referred to as such, as late as Vicksburg...
CoB - Those are the former prosoners I was talking about JR
JR-Host - Though Missouri seceded, the MSG did still exist, newyawk. not all the men were merged into Confederate service, and Price's comission was still effective and was in the books. it was never resigned.
JR-Host - Thought so, CoB.
CoB - The interesting thing to me was the number of partisans that stayed and fought
WuzReb - There was no machinery in place to simply lump the MSG boys over into CS service, is what. No means to simply sign on a dotted line and create them into new entities...
JR-Host - Questions, comments or suggestions?
JR-Host - If not, are we ready for a few bios of some of the more prominent or influencial members of the MSG?
newyawk - Did Price's commission make him a general in the CS forces or just the MSG?
WuzReb - CoB, absolutely! Did you say earlier, do you know a number estimate for the men who stayed behind, such as those under Coffee, Poindexter, et all?
newyawk - Wuz what I was thinking of was that the MSG might have been merged in, because in Lee's early days as commander in Richmond(1861 as militia gen.) he merged all VA militian into CS forces.
Scarlet - I would think that no matter what MrDavis wanted to have happen with state militia's, the independent minded Missouri boys and men, would more thant likely thumb their noses at anyone who tried to endanger their livilhoods, farms, and or families, an dinstead fight for their own regardless of what orders were given to whom!
WuzReb - Newyawk, it seems to have been honored by both CS and MO state authorities....
WuzReb - Newyawk, that is in a way what happened, but since the MSG had to be sent off, effectively, to new commanders out of state, that merging seems to have been a bit more problematic.
CoB - Just to give an idea of the changes. The Bollinger County Light horse became Company B 2nd Missouri under Capt Daniel Reed, the became Co K 7th MISSOURI, under Soloman Kitchen. The Company C 8th Missouri under JL Jeffers
CoB - To which several mustered out and stayed with Thompson
JR-Host - Affectionately known as "Old Pap", Sterling Price was a native of Virginia. He was active in the democratic party after winning fame in the Mexican war. He also was governor of Missouri from 1853-1857. Although opposed to secession, he believed that Northern "coercion" left Missouri no choice but to join her sister states in the Confederacy. His moderate stance and personal charm drew thousand of recruits to the Guard. He accomplished a great deal with the limited resources he had but could never regain control of the railways and river networks. Rather than surrender, he joined Confederate exiles in Mexico after the war, but soon returned to Missouri. He died in 1867.
WuzReb - Scarlet, that is likely also an issue, amongst the MSG. Where Lee could just merge the VA militia with a stroke of a pen, the Missourians were independent as hogs on ice, and likely their transfers into CS service was rather more delicate. Many men simply would NOT do it, and chose to resign or muster out or whatever, rather then leave their home state.
JR-Host - newyawk, Price was comissioned a confederate general in 1863, so he actually held comissions in both the MSG and the CS army.
Scarlet - Considering from last week's discussion that most of the men who originally formed the MSG, did so to protect their own state interests, I would think that the powers that be had not met such independent minded individuals up to that point and werent' too sure how to handle the men of Miissouri!
WuzReb - JR, thanks..... Was not clear about Price's commission.
WuzReb - Scarlet, LOL, I think you are right! But they were tough, as Dameron (THANK YOU!) earlier pointed out!
Jim TNO - I recall Sterling Price... Would you call him JR a real 'fire brand'?
Dameron - I would point out that Price commanded troops other than Missourians while he was in Mississippi. He commanded MS, LA, TX, and AR, trops as well.
JR-Host - Jo Shelby's popularity with his troops rivalled that of Price. A Kentuckian by birth, Shelby became a wealthy and prominent Missouran. He actively participated in the "Bleeding Kansas" struggle of the 1850's. When his term of service expired in the MSG, he accepted a colonelcy in the Confederacy and raised a cavalry regiment. In Oct. of 1862, he took command of several cavalry regiments that became known as "the Iron Brigade". He also went to Mexico when the war ended, but returned to Missoui to become a successful farmer. He died in 1887 as the Federal Marshal for the Western District of Missouri. He was the most accomplised cavalryman in the far west. He rode over 4000 miles and was "the JEB Stuart" of the Trans-Miss.
Dameron - Wuzzy, LOL! You are welcome!!
CoB1 - Scarlet, that is the reason the Ben McCollough pulled his Texans out of Missouri, was due to the fact that according the McCollough said that the MNIssourians didn't care about anything other that "their beloved Missouri"
Jim TNO - This is a side or area of the war that is sooooo ignored. I remeber when I first got started in studying being struck how this area where it really all got started is soooo ignored......
Scarlet - LOL< Cob, the same has been said for we texans at times too
WuzReb - CoB, do you suppose that loyalty to Missouri was part of the friction between Price and McCullough?
CoB - And that they wouldn't take orders from anyone other that another MIssourian
Scarlet - That could definitly casue problems!
WuzReb - LOL, hmmm, wonder if my Missouri blood runs that strong... I've been known to be a tad hard-headed, my own self!
CoB - Yes, Wuz I am sure of it. I order to get the texans Price gave command to McCollough at one point, but he couldn't control them thus his comment
CoB - McCollough wanted to take the boys to Arkansas, but they refused to go
JR-Host - Leader of perhaps the most savage fighting unit in the war, William Clarke Quantrill developed a style of guerilla warfare that terrorized soldiers and civilians alike. Born in Ohio in 1837, he was a school teacher who travelled to Utah and made his living as a gambler named Charles Hart. After a year, he moved to Kansas, again as a schoolteacher, but his past caught up with him. Wanted for murder and horse theft, he fled to Missouri in 1860. He entered the war on the Confederate side. After spending time in the MSG, he became the leader of 'Quantrill's raiders', a small force who hara-ssed Union sympathizers along the KS-Mo border, often clashing with the Jayhawkers. The Union declared him an outlaw. The Confederacy made him a captain. His climax came on Aug. 21, 1863 when his men sacked Lawrence Kansas killing 183 men and boys. Union retribution came when Federal soldiers forced the residents of four Missouri border counties out on the open prairie while the Jayhawkers burned and looted.
WuzReb - CoB, hey, in their shoes, I'd might have felt the same. My family and home is HERE, not down somewhere around Little Rock.
JR-Host - Quantrill's band eventually broke up into smaller units, including one led by "Bloody Bill Anderson". Other members of Quantrill's command were frank and Jesse James and Cole and John Younger, who all would later gain fame and notoriety as outlaws.
CoB - Exactly Wuz, But then you are a Missourian in your blood anyway. You understand
CoB1 - When Bloody Bill left Quantrill, Jesse went with him
Jim TNO - If i might chime in here, I feel the same way about NJ... Even though the state has changed drastically in the last 10 years....But I am NJ born and bread....
WuzReb - CoB, LOL, I reckon so.
Dameron - I got disconnected earlier myself. Don't know what gremlin is in the works, but I wish it would go away.
JR-Host - Churchill Clark, the son of Meriwether Lewis Clark, grandson of the famous explorer Wm. Clark, and grand-nephew of George Rogers Clark of Rev. War fame, was a West point cadet who would have been in the class of 1863. He returned home after two years and trained artillerists in the Guard. 19yr. old "Churchy" commanded the 2nd Missouri Light Artillery. At Lexington, he won a gold medal for shooting down a US flag with a single shot. He wrote home the he would "conquer or die, and die I will before they shall take me." He was decapitated by a solid shot at Pea Ridge. Sterling Price was Churchill's idol, and Price mourned his deathy as if it were his own son.
CoB1 - I have a friend that is retired Army CID intellegence, who told me that in the 70's the US Army did a report concluding that if session became an issue again that Missouri would be the first to go, not South Carolina
JR-Host - No problem, newyawk. One more bio to go. Slow typing here.
JR-Host - Meriwether "Jeff" Thompson was born in Harper's Ferry, Va. in 1826 but moved to Missouri in 1847. As commander of the 1st Division, MSG, he would sometimes use rhetoric as a weapon, using overly bombastic remarks to irritate his enemies and encourage secessionist sentiment. He conducted so many raids from the swamps of SE Mo., Ark, and Louisiana, and even western Tennessee, that he became known as 'the swamp Fox' of the wetlands in the bootheel region. Captured in 1863, he was exchanged a year later and led Shelby's famous Iron Brigade during Price's 1864 Missouri raid. He later commanded a Confederate district in Missouri and Arkansas though he was never comissioned in the Confederate army. He lived in Memphis and New Orleans after the war, but moved back to Missouri. He died in 1876.
JR-Host - That's all I have. Unless there are questions, that is.
Dameron - Great job JFR!!
newyawk - Excellent job JR!! Thank you
CoB - Note on Thompson. He was Mayor of St Joseph, Mo at the time of the Pony Express. He gave the opening speech at the start of the pony express
Jim TNO - JR-Host, Thank you! How in the world did you document all of that?
JR-Host - Thanks to everyone. Sorry I slowed down at the end, but I only had about half of this thing typed in advance. I was away all weekend, and didn't have time to do it all beforehand.
CoB1 - I SALUTE YOU, SIR! WELL DONE JR. OLE PAP WOULD BE PROUD1
JR-Host - Reading, learning, and asking the right people the right questions, Jim.
JR-Host - BTW, it's all CoB's fault. He got me interested in this subject last year!
Jim TNO - Well a great job..... Geeezzz if I could do half as good a job on the characters and players in the drama of LRT, I would be satisfied! Great job!
JR-Host - In keeping with this same line, the next discussion in a few weeks will involve two famous, or infamous depending on where your sentiments lie, characters from the Trans-Mississippi Thatre ...William Clarke Quantrill and Bloody Bill Anderson.
Jim TNO - BTW,Didnt Quantrill have several brothers or relatives who made up most of his leadership?
CoB1 - WHEN?WHEN WHEN?
JR-Host - A couple of weeks or so, CoB. Lotsa Yankee fighting coming up soo, includinga stint as an overall CS commander in two local events two weekends in a row (Your little trooper is growing up so fast), but I'll fit it in there sometime.
JR-Host - Ciao!